So @JoLuehmann has been doing great work being a Christian ally to Jews all day and getting crap from smug Christians all day for it. Jwitter, let’s show her some love.
@TheRaDR @Quiara @JoLuehmann I don’t understand why this is so hard for people? Do they think they can be Christian Muslims too? I understand wanting that ethnic connection because for so long being Jewish was treated as such by society/used to discriminate and hurt but outside of that? Very confused.
@ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara @JoLuehmann Isn’t the difference, though, that Jew is both an ethnic and religious identity? So one can be an ethnically Jewish Christian, can they not?
@ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara @JoLuehmann I mean, I personally know several Jews who converted and identify as Messianic Jews. I find Jo’s tweet odd because she’s very liberal in allowing Christians to self-identify… ie she thinks that Mormons are Christian if they say they are… but Jews can’t do this?What am I missing
@theLUCASTDS @TheRaDR @Quiara @JoLuehmann As I was raised Christian, I will defer to Rabbi Ruttenberg on this one.
@ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara @JoLuehmann Sure but my point is that I personally know several “ethnic” Jews who identify as Christian but also Jews. The same way someone can identify as a secular Jew, can they not also identify as a Jewish Christian? Muslim, meanwhile, is not an ethnic identity
@theLUCASTDS @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara @JoLuehmann A Jewish person cannot have two g-ds. If you are Christian you cannot be Jewish. A secular Jewish person can exist if they don't believe in any other g-d, thus someone can be agnostic or atheist but also Jewish. When you convert to Christianity you cease to be Jewish.
@jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara @JoLuehmann So is “Jew” solely a religious identity then? Not an ethnic identity? If someone is no longer a practicing religious Jew they are, in your eyes, not a Jew?
@theLUCASTDS @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara @JoLuehmann One, if you aren't Jewish yourself please stop saying "Jew" or "a Jew". It's discriminatory and bigoted language when used by someone who isn't Jewish.
@jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara @JoLuehmann 1. I’ve never heard that using the word “Jew” is discriminatory. I’m not using it as a slur. Apologies if you’re finding me offensive 2. I’m not attempting to argue just asking questions. I do find it odd that Jo L extends Xian identity to anyone who self identifies but not
@jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara @JoLuehmann Jewish identity to anyone who self identifies as “Jewish.” While I’m sure Jewish (religious) identity can be changed… if someone wants to retain their Jewish cultural/ethnic heritage while practicing Christianity… not sure why that can be denied to them
@theLUCASTDS @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara @JoLuehmann Let me ask you this, what do you think are the cultural/ethnic heritage of Jewish people? Basically all of our holidays are tied to our religion. They aren't secular.
@jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara @JoLuehmann Sure. But that’s being protectionist of a kind of orthodoxy. Which is valid. I’m just curious why Jo L extends that kind of orthodoxy to Judaism but not Christianity.
@theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara Because i listen to Jewish people. Because Judaism is not the same as Christianity. I extend things to Christianity that I don’t extend to Judaism because they are two different religions with different practices and different boundaries. Because I am respectful of Jewish people
@JoLuehmann @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara Yes and I’m listening to the (ethnically) Jewish Christians I know. Are they suddenly not Jewish anymore— ethnically— if they convert to another religion? Is the son of a Jewish person, raised Jewish their entire lives, not (ethnically) Jewish anymore? These r the Qs I have
@theLUCASTDS @JoLuehmann @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara Yes. That is correct. They are no Jewish. I don’t understand why we need to keep repeating this.
@WorstSamaritan @JoLuehmann @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara Because it’s a foreign concept of identity that’s very diff from the personal identity model in our society. Here we value “My Truth” and “My Story.” So I’m surprised that you’re surprised that this concept of someone’s identity being invalidated like this would seem foreign
@theLUCASTDS @JoLuehmann @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara Jews don’t use societal models to determine Jewish law. We use halacha - Actual Jewish Law. The parameters and requirements of Jewish peoplehood have been settled for centuries.
@theLUCASTDS @JoLuehmann @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara It is absolutely astonishing that Christians can’t believe that we don’t tolerate the worship of the god of the Crusaders, Inquisitors, Cossacks, and Nazis among us.
@WorstSamaritan @JoLuehmann @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara Actually, I was more shocked by the fact that apparently atheism and Judaism are compatible. I also found it odd that the idea of being “ethnically Jewish” while not being religiously Jewish is not a concept in Judaism. Given the number of atheist Jews I assumed this was what…
@theLUCASTDS @JoLuehmann @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara You seem to be under the false impression that atheistic Jews are not religious. Many are. I have met Conservative, Orthodox, and Hasidic Jews who are fervently devout and don’t know if they even believe in GD.
@theLUCASTDS @JoLuehmann @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara You are ‘shocked’ that atheist Jews exist. You know what shocks me? That some Jews (like myself) still believe in GD in the shadow of Auschwitz. You have no comprehension of how Jews abandoned GD after GD abandoned us.
@theLUCASTDS @JoLuehmann @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara Yes. GD abandoned us during the Shoah. And our parents and grandparents in turn abandoned GD. But they didn’t abandon the mitzvot. They didn’t abandon their Jewishness. In the shadow of the Shoah, belief in GD is almost impossible, but we ENDURED.
@theLUCASTDS @JoLuehmann @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara What a miracle. What a triumph. We literally had to write a 614th commandment to encourage Jews to not abandon Judaism, to refuse to give Hitler a posthumous victory even in defiant unbelief, but we lived and survived.
@theLUCASTDS @JoLuehmann @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara So you can imagine how atrocious, how disgusting it is to our Jewish perspective for Christians to make self-righteous judgements on any Jew’s level of belief and practice. You are utterly, completely disqualified to even THINK about disparaging an atheist Jew.
@theLUCASTDS @JoLuehmann @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara Every time a Christian tries to argue that atheist Jews shouldn’t be counted as Jews, you are trying to decrease the number of Jews in the world. How dare you. How DARE you.
@WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @JoLuehmann @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara Isn’t that an argument for counting Christian Jews as Jewish then? If decreasing the number of Jews in the world is wrong then isn’t increasing the number of Jewish people in the world good?
@AaronAOkay @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR @Quiara Because blurring the lines of Judaism and Christianity is a type of cultural genocide. How can you not see this!!! Do you not know any history!!?
@JoLuehmann @AaronAOkay @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR Deciding cubic zirconia “are basically diamonds” doesn’t actually increase the numbers of diamonds in the world. It just muddies what constitutes a diamond and devalues all of them.
@Quiara @AaronAOkay @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR This!!!
@JoLuehmann @Quiara @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR Religious/ethnic distinctions aren’t immutable. Unless one believes in God I suppose, but you don’t.
@AaronAOkay @JoLuehmann @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR Me? I do. I just know plenty of observant atheist Jews.
@Quiara @JoLuehmann @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR No, Jo. She’s a “Christian” atheist.
@AaronAOkay @JoLuehmann @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR Well, yeah, that’s someone who admits their worldview and even atheism have been shaped by the hegemonic Christian culture. That’s…that’s a thing.
@Quiara @AaronAOkay @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR I don’t identify as a Christian atheist. I’ve explained to him I believe in divinity but not in God as a being. But he’s apparently too dense to understand that concept, as are more Christians so I said once “it’s like I am a Christian atheist” or something and they ran with it.
@JoLuehmann @AaronAOkay @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR Ah. Honestly, Jo, have you considered just …being Jewish? We get that over here.
@Quiara @AaronAOkay @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR One hundred million times. It’s Judaism that saved my faith after experiencing religious abuse, it’s Judaism that’s radicalized me, I am absolutely obsessed with Judaism and devour everything I can get my hands on. And the Christ keeps being a notion that calls me 😭😭😭
@JoLuehmann @AaronAOkay @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR That was me, five years or so ago. No pressure. But if you ever decide you want to consider the beit din/mikveh path, I’m here to talk you out of it while you talk yourself in.
@JoLuehmann @AaronAOkay @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR For some of us, we don’t view messiah as person, but an age of full redemption. An age of healing and repair. And it’s our job to bring it about.
@Quiara @AaronAOkay @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR 😭😭😭 I don’t see Christ as a person either. I think Jesus the historical man was the Christ but the Christ transcends Jesus. It’s an ethos, a way of being and living in the world where Heaven on Earth is possible (and here you can see all the Christian influences of course).
@JoLuehmann @AaronAOkay @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR Jo…I hate to tell you, but…I think your soul’s Jewish.
@JoLuehmann @AaronAOkay @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR The world to come is often portrayed as one that is this world but healed. Brought about by messiah. We…have that.
@Quiara @AaronAOkay @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭. That’s why I do what I do, because I believe it’s possible, or I would have given up on life at the darkest days of my depression. It was reading what Christians call the minor prophets and wrestling through Genesis and Ecclesiastes.
@JoLuehmann @AaronAOkay @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR Jo, seriously, hit me up if you want to talk. No rush and no pressure. I just recognize similar things in my journey and yours.
@Quiara @AaronAOkay @WorstSamaritan @theLUCASTDS @jaimeinreallife @ibsroyalty @TheRaDR I will!
